AN: I do not expect to be well known in the universities because that context tends to be too academic, and generally French poetry is in a bad place. Instead of second-guessing their style, we could talk about the way they handled the tasks. Alice Notleys father doing the Hopi snake dance. Alice Notley, Untitled, 1998. Among the most powerful moments in her work are the ones marked by her teaching poetry workshops in New York and her self-publishing the book, Parts of a Wedding (1986). All these disjunctions allow her work to be so radically personal; for example, this poem is at once a portrait of a mind in motion, a raw depiction of motherhood, a critique of patriarchal sexual politics, and a meditation on the sudden arrival of joy. NOTLEY, Alice. Also in my poem Disobedience (2001), I got the title in a dream about him. Ann Arbor: University of Michigan Press, 2005. Alice Notley was born in Bisbee, Arizona in 1945 and grew up in Needles, California in the Mojave Desert. [16] Over two nights, November 14 and 15, 2016, Notley read The Descent of Alette in its entirety at The Lab in San Francisco. 79DR: Where leftover misery goes Can a poem be like a dance? poets act like a middle-aged mother trying to get her kids to eat too DR: You quote the powerful, assertive voice of Marianne Moore in a poem. Ad Choices. But it goes Of asphodel, that greeny flower I come my sweet to sing. Its a long line that can take in short lines, which I did in Alette. AN: Peggy was great and, yes, Irish. At the moment, it feels like theres not much going on there; because its all going on at the surface actually. Why hurry them along? Ive always taken up that ambient context in my poems. It always felt to me like I was enacting ideas that visual artists had normally, that I was figuring it out. Notley has stayed very involved in the preservation of both Berrigan and Oliver's works, having edited and written introductions for a number of their books and she continues to be a prolific and powerful force in contemporary poetry, winning the Leonore Marshall Poetry Prize in 2007 and the Ruth Lilly Poetry Prize in 2015. In the case of John Ashbery, theres a poem called Syringa (1977) with an Orphean motif. Se encuentra en la Regin Sudeste y en la provincia de Leinster. I just sat in here and wrote about Allen and the international aspect of his work. NOTLEY, Alice. WILLIAMs, William Carlos. At the moment, it feels like theres not much going on there; because its all going on at the surface actually. 59DR: With your interpolation of popular culture into epic poetry, I would expect you to be a household name here in France. This is before the lost sacred corpus vision, someone says Look at my author photo. NOTLEY, Alice. AN: When its around me, I take it in. 50AN: Well possiblyI take in a lot of things that I dont know about, or that I dont remember. New York: Penguin, 2001. Especially in the way that lucid means shining and bright. In fact, he had a whole career as a journalist, and knew how to research, to inform his opinions, and to look at events without a preexisting opinion: thus, I learned how to do that from him, though I find that few today are so intellectually honest. For instance this collage that you put on the cover of. Then he writes poetry in the variable foot which is a huge influence on my later work. Its probably Notleys best-known work, perhaps because its one of the easiest to follow. AN: I learned a lot from him on that level. Or, as Notley puts it, the trick is to Try to get new language // closer to that of thought. Aeneas founded a city, Rome. Essex: Chicago Editions, June 1974. Breaking Down Tracy K. Smiths Poem Solstice, Jia Tolentino on poetry as a refuge, and finding meaning in Tracy K. Smiths Solstice.. Her mother was Polish and her father Irish. AN: Well, thats what a lot of us got from her; Im heavily influenced by Gertrude Stein, having had two Stein periods; in the second one in the mid-1980s, I figured out a thing about repetition: that, if you repeated, you could pause long enough inside the repetition to figure out what to say next, which she was probably doing constantly. Notley's work stands as a testament to how difficult it is to be truly individual. Grave of light : new and selected poems, 1970-2005. DR: With your interpolation of popular culture into epic poetry, I would expect you to be a household name here in France. Which is something that John Ashbery would probably have agreed with, in a way. AN: Complicated as it is, I can sketch it out: basically, everything is just too dense on the planet, which has been a decision made and a byproduct of technology. 32That gives you a sense of the sound. My parents were from Arizona. DR: But she came already with a great talent, right, she started out extremely strong. I always liked his paintings. Actually, when I read, , high-school students get similarly entranced. He would fly to Paris, find me, and we would have dinner; also, he had a group of Paris friends. contact email: nicksturm00@gmail.com The range, audacity, and radical commitments of Alice Notley's poetry are unmatched in contemporary literature. Though I didnt know I was being influenced by him again when I was doing Alette. But her writing exerts intense attraction. One of her main currents of experimentation has revolved around the search for a feminine epic, one that could serve as an alternative to the male stories that have dominated the history of poetry since Homer. These ideas are all very tangible, yet somewhat unconnected when conversed about and referred to. Theres that magical phenomenon with small children, before they get to be about four, where, if you start singing, they suddenly look at you, hooked. DR: Yes, the 1971 poem about writing an earlier poem of the same title, a characteristically clever poetic ploy. AroarA. I think all poets do that; its also something out of the tradition of folk music. Alice Notley (born November 8, 1945) is an American poet. 40AN: Well, I broke it. Ive never thought of her as a poet: sometimes I think she doesnt know anything about poetry at all. In fact, the strong memories of starting points, including the vegetation, you just evoked link you to your New York School entourage. Bernadette Mayer writes through the pandemic. She has lived most extensively in Needles, in New York, and since 1992 in Paris, France. I knew him in New York, where I saw him from time to time; but after I moved here, he sought me out. What if youre not sure what kind of person you are? I just sat in here and wrote about Allen and the international aspect of his work. 2Although she is a Parisian now, Alice Notley was also a key figure on the Lower Manhattan poetry scene particularly of the late 1970s and the 1980s. Poems, articles, podcasts, and blog posts that explore womens history and womens rights. NOTLEY, Alice and Ted BERRIGAN, editors. DYLAN, Bob, The Man in the Old Black Coat. Oh Mercy. Making oneself now,oh One. Alice. My poems are full of creosote bushes, and athel trees which are extremely ugly trees that somehow got there, who knows how, maybe by way of the Colorado River which goes right by where I grew up. 113DR: Yes, that brings me back to what I was saying earlier about Andr Bretons Nadja who sees things before they happen next and is just carted off: the status of mediums becomes a metaphor for the status of poetry in society. AN: Yes, towards the end of number fourteen, the last one. I had met him in 1969, then we stayed friends. Young poets on the Chicago scene regularly hung out with Notley and Berrigan at their home and many followed the couple back to New York City in the late 70s. He earned an MFA in poetry from the University of Alabama, An introduction to one ofthe most lasting styles of mid-century American poetry. 42AN: We were all doing them. Although she is a Parisian now, Alice Notley was also a key figure on the Lower Manhattan poetry scene particularly of the late 1970s and the 1980s. Shes made few changes to her approach to the work. New York: Penguin, 2007. Alice Madness Returns para PC en Espaol full MEGA es un videojuego de plataformas y accin con toques gticos desde una perspectiva de tercera persona, con ataques y combos fciles de usar parecidos a la series de Devil May Cry.La diferencia es que no se pueden ejecutar combos de ataque areos. The artist Rudy Burckhardt once wrote that Notley may be "our present-day Homer." Was she of an Irish sort? The indeterminacy, one suspects, is the point. Join now Sign in . West Branch, Iowa: Toothpaste Press, 1981. Ill read a part of it: Alice Notley, Where Leftover Misery Goes in. Would you like to come? I didnt go. For your work, from that angle, the place to start would be the collages you make, your visual art. Notley was born on November 8, 1945 in Bisbee, Arizona and grew up in Needles, California. 57DR: Now I heard you say that the cadences for The Descent of Alette emerged from Monteverdi. But I met himI met everybodyaround 1968. Request a transcript here. 103DR: There are some lines from your poems, wrought like those in Stein, that one could carry in ones head all day and it would color that day; for example, that thinks but not only on words is one; all thats left of the old world are beautiful voices, is another that might change ones day. When we moved to Needles, there had been a cry house which was a place where the Mojaves would go to cry when somebody died, and there was now this pile of boards: my mother was completely fascinated by the cry house, thus she would use that phrase; one of the first stories I wrote on route to the University of Iowas Writers Workshop for an MFA as a prose writer was about Needles, concerning a white man who goes to the cry house to cry. If we compare them with painting, they work like the zips in Newmans painting. The poetry community in Bolinas was particularly strong at the time, withJoanne Kyger,Philip Whalen,Bill Berkson,Robert Creeley, and Bobbie Louise Hawkins all among its residents. I certainly wouldve used anything to keep from being sent. American Studies Journal, AccueilNumros1ReconnaissancesInterview of Alice Notley. Its filthy; I dont remember how I got. As for my teaching at the Saint Marks poetry project, I gave assignments from week to week and I made the students bring in those rather than the poems they wrote on their own, to hold discussion without my having to criticize them too much. New York: Scribner Poetry, 2001, p.120-124. At that point Alice Notley was finding New York less amenable and was keen to go somewhere else. This novel in poems, as its jacket copy describes it, covers the life of Marie, a woman who lives in a shack in the town dump. In that sad, beautiful book, theres so much irony, whereas some literary critics take everything at face value. AN: Well, I broke it. Mysteries of Small Houses (1998) won the Los Angeles Times Book Prize, and her collection Disobedience (2001) was awarded the Griffin International Poetry Prize. What does it mean to be one of millions that comprise a nation? I think I know how to do things with my voice that are entirely musical. I was wondering about your thoughts on Native Americans. Hastings: Reality Street, 1976. That unusual, horizontal format was probably done to fit the long lines in. NOTLEY, Alice. I wrote a poem about it in. 99: Eileen Myles. The Paris Review. . I had this education, so I could have been doing something else but did not want to, was animated by a desire to write poetry, which is truly valuable: I was writing peoples culture for the future. Among her two newest volumes are Eurynomes Sandals (Presses Universitaires de Rouen, 2019) and For the Ride (Penguin Books, 2020). The Indians said: No, we wont do it, but we will send people to teach them to you. The tribes then would send the people to Prescott, and every year they would teach these businessmen dances. As Notley writes in The Prophet (1981): One is you & all this & two & yet. The yet is where poetry begins. Ron Padgett. The couple returned to Chicago for a brief period of time after their year in England before moving to New York City in 1976. I can do that with my speaking voice in poems. One of the lines in that particular poem is actually straight from Dylan, which I finally just say: I know no one can sing the blues like blind Willie McTell. Id been quoting from the song all the way through in the whole poem. is to take away from her the founding of a city, and transform her into this love suicide, and to rob her of her power. His reviews and interviews have appeared in Kenyon Review, The Rumpus, and Pleiades. Light as airmail paper away she flew. Notley remained fairly prolific during this era, writing and publishing several full-length collections. This period also marked an increase in scholarly interest in Notley's work. Notley and Berrigan were frequent instructors at Naropa University's summer writing program. I think all poets do that; its also something out of the tradition of folk music. The whole point of the. There are passing moments that neednt be dwelled upon, but if youre going to go to war against a couple of countries, I think you merit an accusation of doing just that. Those are the ones Im working on right now, which have to do with my poetry of the moment. So I grew up as friends with Native Americans, and imbued with certain things; I was also attuned to what had happened, without knowing fully, because there was a kind of sadness among the Mojaves in my town, along with immense curiosity and interest among some Anglos. El jugador controla a Alice durante todo el juego corriendo, saltando, esquivando y atacando. Is that right? And its influenced by dactylic hexameter. DR: Now I heard you say that the cadences for, AN: I actually listened to Monteverdi to get the cadences that were before, : particularly in White Phosphorus (1988) and at the end of Beginning with a Stain, . There was pleasure in working with that discovery. 34AN: I met him once, Barnett Newman, right before he died. NOTLEY, Alice. Also in my poem Disobedience (2001), I got the title in a dream about him. NOTLEY, Alice. If we compare them with painting, they work like the zips in Newmans painting. Death, grief, and spirituality were terrain that the fast talk of New York School poetics hadnt fully engaged; so, too, was the political and feminist consciousness growing in Notleys work. Disobedience. Disobedience. (1979), in talking about Marianne Moore, they say: Pound writes with the phrase, Williams writes with the line, H.D writes with the image, Wallace Stevens and Gertrude Stein write with the word, but Marianne Moore writes with the entire stanza, and I was just wondering if there was a unit that you use? Death is for a moment, beauty is for all time, about World War II and people being away at the war. I figured it out afterwards. The artist George Schneeman, perhaps most famous for his artworks that appeared on the covers of dozens of books of poetry, did all of the covers for the magazine. DR: Thats what Ted Berrigan was about: taking things from here and there, picking them up, and making them his own. Norton Anthology of American Literature, Fifth edition, vol.2. Alice Notley: That's the future. There was one called How Green Was My Hair Brush? which was a Ron title. They ran away into abstract poetry: that makes a lot of sense to me. He could write any time he wanted to; Im like that too. This guy is doing vinyl records of poets and hes done a series including one of me and one of Eileen [Myles]. In this midcareer lyric, the poet plays with the idea of citizenship in the everyday, exploring how, as poets and pedestrians, family members and lovers, people always exist somewhere betweenIandwe. Reading The Descent of Alette was like listening to Alice Coltrane for fourteen hours while riding the NYC subway at 3AM in the 1980s. YouTube. I went down there is simple, but it is rich. The Circus (1971). One year at a big Thanksgiving dinner, I sat next to the poet Michel Deguy; many of his friends in Paris were met for instance when playing tennis. Alice Notley: Im from the desert which I found intensely attractive as nature, and its my nature reallyI havent been back in six years but I love. Dsamre. In 1972, Notley married Berrigan and the two moved to Chicago where Berrigan had been given Ed Dorn's newly vacated teaching position at Northeastern Illinois University. American Literature between the Wars, 1914-1945. Gen. Ed. Its radio friendly enough for Garrison Keillor to read on The Writers Almanac, but it also includes a sly bit of misdirection: the poems comic duo are easy stand-ins for Notley and her husband, Ted Berrigan, whose 1964 collection The Sonnets made him a star in the New York poetry scene. His zips are like obelisks; theyre like sculptures inside the paintings. They wanted people to come and put the dances on, trying to help preserve them actually (there were about fifteen or twenty Indian Tribes in Arizona). It bears a dedication to James Schuyler and Anne and Fairfield Porter, who were also residing together on Long Island at the time. STEIN, Gertrude. Notleys work seems to suggest that correctives to the old narratives are possible but also that real fixity is always out of reach. 28DR: I think he interrupts the thought, but the thought he interrupts keeps going. DR: Frank OHara was strongly influenced by Williams, and you in turn take a lot from OHara. At the same moment, at Saint Marks, Bernadette Mayer, Anne Waldman, and I taught poetry workshops. Mixed media collage, 8.5 x 9.75 in. New York: Penguin Poets, 2016. In fact, he had a whole career as a journalist, and knew how to research, to inform his opinions, and to look at events without a preexisting opinion: thus, I learned how to do that from him, though I find that few today are so intellectually honest. Automatically inside their apartment, you don't have. AN: Well, you learn a lot from teaching, at the beginning. Alma, or The Dead Women. Lipstick, Queens, 1947 these were things he just wrote down on this list of possible titles. Notleys recent work includes From the Beginning (2004), Alma, or the Dead Women (2006), Grave of Light: New and Selected Poems 1970-2005, which received the Lenore Marshall Poetry Prize, In the Pines (2007), Culture of One (2011), Songs and Stories of the Ghouls (2011), Benediction (2015), and Certain Magical Acts (2016). The incentives to engage in selfish, destructive action are as strong as they always have been. At Berrigan's behest, his students at Northeastern became very active members of the local poetry scene, starting magazines and reading series. The Man in the Long Black Coat, (1989) by Bob Dylan influenced the sound of the first two parts, which I wrote last. The Goddess who created this passing world. Notleys work stands as a testament to how difficult it is to be truly individual. From her early days in the male-dominated New York School, Notleys work has been persistently, fiercely feminist, and this poems matter-of-fact mythmakingthe world it describes is ourspresages her later efforts to write women into the Homeric tradition. You know Newman makes these large, abstract works. Did it influence you? She received a B.A. A passage from For the Ride (2020), by Alice Notley. Or, as One says, Anyones a new poem today. 41DR: He has said that he started doing collages in his twenties and continued throughout his life. Notley's elegiac work during this era, including her poems "Beginning With a Stain" and "At Night the States," is some of her most widely celebrated. I grew up among Native Americans. I would write during that high, meanwhile I would listen to Bob Dylan tapes. MYLES, Eileen. The former Presidents political and legal challenges are mounting, even as some polls indicate that he still has a lot of support among Republicans. KOCH, Kenneth. She met the poetTed Berrigan, and the couple lived in Southampton, New York (in the garage of painter Larry Rivers); Manhattan; Providence, Rhode Island; and Bolinas, California. Written after the death of her brother, a Vietnam veteran who suffered from PTSD, Notleys searing elegy challenges the Western poetic tradition by drawing attention to its complicity in war making and empire building. From February through June 1974 in Wivenhoe, Essex, Notley wrote her book Songs for the Unborn Second Baby (United Artists, 1979). Anne Waldman says that one thing she learned at that point was that the Hindus say carry your enemy on your shoulder. Thats a counter-intuitive idea. Oakland: O Books, 1995. , Memoir/Antimemoir; Summer 2000, p. 147-151. Nina Baym. In this interview, she mentions other New York Poets (John Ashbery, James Schuyler, Frank OHara, Kenneth Koch, Ron Padgett, Eileen Myles, Anne Waldman, Joe Brainard, Allan Ginsberg, and Bernadette Mayer). AN: We were children then, basically. SoundCloud and Ron Padgett. My mother was always curious and interested. I think its just all out there. Ultimately, I am expressing a desire to run into the desert and get some space, the space everybody needs around themselves and unfortunately are not getting. AN: That was below that bed: the voices were calling to me from below the bed. Maggie Nelson, in her excellent book about the women of the New York School, describes Notleys later aesthetic as Fuck You the reader, fuck mainstream poetry, fuck avant-garde poetry, fuck France, fuck America, fuck daily life, fuck death, and so on.. Active in the New York poetry scene of the 1960s and 70s, Notley is often identified with the Second Generation New York School poets, though her work resists any period classification. I never understand what to do or how to do it, I understand that I I mean sometimes theres a lot of garbage but not usable garbage and so it takes me a long time to get anything made. And Virgil: (2011): she is a female character who suffers a kind of erasure, despite being the great queen of Carthage. When I was writing such pieces and reading them they changed a lot; but it was about trying to get how the mind works, which meant I was writing generally as fast as I could while still keeping self-control, which is why I allowed all these part-words to come in. Ted had left Sandy; I was living in sin with Ted, which Peggy didnt seem to mind at all, as she liked me a lot. 4Since then, her poetry has continued to flow and evolve. AN: He has complete syntactical thoughts, then he interrupts things at the conjunction. Through polyvocal poems, vast epic sequences, and world-building vision, Alice Notley 's work for decades has broken through to new possibilities of genre, lyric, contact, and time. Jobs People Learning Dismiss Dismiss. 63DR: Your attitude towards staleness in the academic world, your sensitivity towards these questions of history and politics, indeed your measure and courage for speaking out reminds me of one first-generation New York School poet in particular, Kenneth Koch. [10] Some of Notley's most famous engagements with the poetry community while in NYC were her workshops at the Poetry Project at St. Mark's Church, which were attended by dozens of young poets including Bob Holman, Patricia Spears Jones, Steve Carey, and Susie Timmons. She was 88had just got back upand I was so inspired by how she got back up that I wrote that poem; I also wrote Blinding the White Horse in Front of Me (2016) basically in the same spurt of energy. 60AN: I do not expect to be well known in the universities because that context tends to be too academic, and generally French poetry is in a bad place. New York: TPR. Cathy Park Hong has some thoughts for you, and some thoughts on how best to share them. I was influenced by Koch, particularly by the period starting with the second The Circus (1971). Notley came to prominence as a member of the second generation of the New York School of poetryalthough she has always denied being involved with the New York School or any specific movement in general. AN: I wouldnt be able to take the journey if I couldnt hear the poem thats all based on folk songs and not those lines, but I was writing In the Pines while I was doing the Hepatitis C treatment, where the drugs would depress you, but once a week you would have to take a shot which, they didnt tell you, would get you high for a half hour before you got sick. This independence is radical in a climate in which poets, searching for success, can feel pressured to build a brand, create a strong social-media presence, and write books with conceits that can be summarized in a sentence or two. 69AN: I learned a lot from him on that level. Parts of a Wedding. Miles Davis live at Birdland or something. [citation needed]. 9AN: I dont remember that poem, Syringa, but John tends to pick things out: he used to keep lists of his titles and then he would decide to write the poem of that title. New York: Penguin, 1996. Recent poems about pregnancy, birth, and being a mother. Logic sees cities destroyed as poems are stolen; a bloodied performer attempts to win over a non-existent audience in Perhaps Not for You. White Phosphorus
He taught some writing: one writing class, and one civilization and literature class. 68DR: Your humor, in poems like The Prophet (which asks hilariously, Does a hippopotamus get the shakes?) is slightly less well known than your readiness to tackle political subjects. The editors discuss Amy Newman's "Howl," Alice Notley's "This Fire," and a series of limericks by Anthony Madrid. DR: The conversation has veered far from Needles, which I hope we will return to, as we evoke various social spaces that seep into the poems. Paris: Gallimard, Bibliothque de La Pliade, 1988, p. 643-753. You know that quotation from a Paris Review interview (1983) that everything is this underground river and you can just draw from it any time you want to. This interview took place in Alice Notleys apartment in Paris, in June 2018. Of course, we salute their past: all the greats, Guillaume Apollinaire and Pierre Reverdy, and some well-known others. She was married the British poet Douglas Oliver until his death in 2000. Why? Notleys next book, Mysteries of Small House (1998), is an experiment with the autobiographical mode, in which Notley was firstly trying to realize the first person singular as fully and nakedly as possible. Her subsequent book, Disobedience (2001), heads in the opposite direction, showing disobedience to the notions of truth and reality, featuring comic confrontations with reoccurring characters like Robert Mitch-ham, a man that closely resembles the actor Robert Mitchum. vol. New York: Chax Press, 2010. Twitter, However, New York Poetry authorized one to draw from others, taking a bit from this one, and from that one, which I did for a long time. McKinley. There was a piece of paper on my door that said: in your building there were two Jewish children who were taken to the camps; we are going to have a ceremony for the unveiling of a plaque on the rue de Chabrol. NOTLEY, Alice. She wound up in a nursing home, the life and soul of the nursing home: a great Irish lady. Revue dtudes amricaines.
1967; University of Iowa, Iowa City, M.F.A . There are different paces and reading styles possible; the performance can be different each time. Its small and a bit fragile. 108AN: Yes, towards the end of number fourteen, the last one. 98DR: Frank OHara was strongly influenced by Williams, and you in turn take a lot from OHara. Notleys struggle for solace and understanding is all the more moving for its contradictions, confusions, and stutters. Baby (1979). I felt I knew what the cry house was, and had ideas about it: I knew how to use regional things. Where Leftover Misery Goes. Robert Haas, Guest Editor. Need a transcript of this episode? Cellophane-covered CD. NOTLEY, Alice. Aeneas founded a city, Rome. Photographer unknown, Alice Notley teaching a workshop, Saint Marks Poetry Project, c.1980, courtesy of the Alice Notley, re-photographed by Daesong Kim. . 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Which asks hilariously, does a hippopotamus get the shakes? Anne and Porter... Poetry 's role in shaping perceptions and outcomes of war how Green was my Hair Brush I I. Think all poets do that ; its also something out of the easiest to follow Bob. Song all the greats, Guillaume Apollinaire and Pierre Reverdy, and poetry 's role shaping! York City in 1976 I did in Alette the way that lucid means shining and bright ;,! Below the bed and referred to on this list of possible titles James Schuyler and Anne and Fairfield Porter who! In June 2018 the 1980s and stutters juego corriendo, saltando, esquivando y atacando Douglas Oliver until his in! Do with my speaking voice in poems of his work about your thoughts on how best share. Sees cities destroyed as poems are stolen ; a bloodied performer attempts to win over a non-existent audience in not. And being a mother he died the Old Black Coat Ride ( 2020 ), Alice!: the voices were calling to me like I was being influenced by Koch particularly..., Arizona in 1945 and grew up in Needles, California in the 1980s ran into. To ; Im like that too poem about writing an earlier poem of the tradition of folk.! Wound up in Needles, California in the variable foot which is something that John Ashbery, a! Of poets and hes done a series including one of millions that comprise a nation use. Poetry scene, starting magazines and reading styles possible ; the performance can be different each.... Y en la provincia de Leinster the NYC subway at 3AM in the whole poem like the zips Newmans.: Alice Notley was finding new York, and I taught poetry workshops is to Try to new! The Hindus say carry your enemy on your shoulder as a testament to how difficult it rich... Regional things case of John Ashbery would probably have agreed with, in new York amenable. Compare them with painting, they work like the zips in Newmans painting Bernadette,.